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Wrong Relationship Creates Illness -- For Life!

Source:  Private Message

Karl Note:  It would be the nature of this type of message that the writer does not want her name shown, as this lady asked, and that, further, some of the data be changed to preserve her anonymity.  I  very much respect her wish, and thank her, also, very much for being willing for me to share the main thrust of her story with you.  I am using "Sally" as her name for this page.  That is not her real name.

-----Original Message-----
From: Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 8:05 AM
To: karl@karlloren.com
Subject: Illness & Relationships

 

Hi Karl,

I've spent the morning traveling around your website.  Thank you so much for your candid approach and integrity.  So much of what you've said is part of my previous belief system.  You've added so much more that I wasn't aware of and explained many of my doubts. 
 

In particular, I'd like to speak with you about illness and relationships. 

I'm living proof of exactly what you're saying. 

I was born in 19xx and as a child, I was hospitalized with vague illnesses that were never determined.  My symptoms mimicked rheumatic fever although that was ruled out.  I had massively high antibodies that were unexplained. 

My mother was fixated on my bed-wetting so cystoscopic exams were routinely ordered.  Doctors always expected to find large "masses of pus" to explain my high fevers and aching joints.  But that never happened. 

[Karl Note:  The image on the left is ONE type of gadget used for cystoscopic exams  Can you imagine how the insertion on a regular basis of such a tube into a woman's vagina would be upsetting -- a very young woman?

Now add to this that the use of this tube followed mother's yelling and anger, and a doctor, who should know better, who is peering at this frightened little girl's private parts!)

After I got away from my family, my health improved.  

I moved near my mother again in 1991 and my health has steadily gone down hill. 

I have CFIDS and am depressed, anxious and obese.  (CFIDS is "chronic fatigue immune deficiency syndrome" and I have written a very full article on this HERE.)

I am going to have blood drawn later this week to find out about nanobacteria to explain my latest infection. 

I just completed a session of energy work (which drained a pilonidial cyst) which was wonderful but I can't afford $300 a month forever that's not covered by our health insurance. 

I have a wonderful holistic M.D. who told me early on that if I could heal my family relationship, I could heal my body.  I know she's right. 

However, I've finally stopped trying to have a relationship with my mother.  I can no longer try to appeal to her only to be thrown out of her house because I refuse to be her victim and then be the subject of her lies to elicit sympathy. 

We are now at a total impasse.  I have tried everything I know but the only relationship I can have with her is one where I continue to be her scapegoat. 

I'm tired and sick and sick and tired.  She is dishonest and uses me to elicit sympathy from her other two kids who don't live locally. 

They, of course, "hate" that I'm "mistreating" this elderly woman with the healthy check book who is generous to them for keeping her secrets. 

I no longer have anything to do with any of my family. 

My father died in 1988 of pancreatic cancer so my mother now has full rein to her lies and manipulations. 

(Karl Note:  There is no doubt, within my philosophy on "wrong relationships" that the mother was the primary cause of this girl's father's cancer -- so deadly are these wrong relationships.)

Without this sick relationship, my health should improve however I can't rid myself of the grief and despair at not having a family.  Of course, I realize this is crazy, which brings me to my reason for writing to you.

How do I change my thinking and feel okay about where I'm at? 

I can't change my family but I can change myself but I don't know how. 

I suppose that what you need to know to help me is that I was severely punished every morning for wetting the bed.  While my mother rubbed my wet panties in my face she would tell me that no one could ever love me and no one would ever marry me.  Many men wanted to marry me but I was sick at the idea that anyone might find out how "unlovable" I truly was. 

Seven years ago, I married a man who has two children from a previous marriage.  His entire family is deceased except for his kids who don't live locally.  It's too late for me to have a family.  And my anxiety is preventing me from making other friends. 

I want to have friends and enjoy life but don't want to be around people. 

I want to move out of this area but my husband is tied to his job.  I have tremendous resentment for my mother who fed me this legacy that prevented me from having my own family and now tells lies that prevent me having a relationship with my birth family. 

I feel as though I'm trapped in a lonely existence with my husband who is a good person but pretty much emotionally unavailable.  Where do I go for help?

Please forgive this personal outpouring of emotion.  I feel at my wit's end and am filled with hope that your sound wisdom can adequately advise me. 

Thank you so very much for your honesty and excellent work.  

Sally

P.S.  I'd greatly appreciate you not airing my letter on your website without substantially changing it and my name so I can remain anonymous. 

Thanks. 

Dear Sally,

Wow!

A fascinating story.

I can help you.

First, I want to ask about CFIDS -- the most usual "remedy" for that condition is the prescription of anti-depressants.

Can you tell me which ones, if any, you have taken, or are now taking?

Answer and I'll respond.

Cordially,

Karl Loren

Dear Sally,

Thanks!

Good news on the absence of anti-depressants.

It is one thing to offer these free books. They can be used to spot wrong relationships.

But it yet another thing to do what I am doing.  I am trying to be a "morals counselor" to those who visit that web site, and my "morals counseling" is another experiment.

There is no question that I could remedy the upset you still feel with your mother.  That is a certainty.  But, the question is whether I can do this by eMail or not. So, you are an experiment.

It sounds like your doctor may be OK, but she certainly doesn't know how to solve CFIDS.

So, I ask you to do three things.

1.  You may have already done this? Read my article about fibromyalgia.  The situation is hardly different from CFIDS.  It is located at:  http://www.chelationtherapyonline.com/anatomy/p1.htm

2.  Next, visit www.happinessonline.org .  Read and comment.  Ask for the free books if you wish.  One of the experiments I'm trying with this site is to give people a clue as to what a "wrong relationship" might be.  You can read there and see what your mother was doing -- something that violates some moral code.  I have not yet covered all the codes, and maybe I need to add more.  Your page might well be the section entitled "child abuse."  Visit, let me know what you think.

3.  As you read that article on fibromyalgia, you saw the remedies I suggest.  Diet is a big one for you.  I know with some certainty that your diet is not good -- else you would not be sick and fat.  I am also experimenting with how to get people to not run away from my diet suggestions.  So, after reading the above, read at:

  http://www.karlloren.com/Diabetes/raw-food-diet.htm

Let me know.

I do have some pages on nanobacteria.  Here: 

Nanobacteria -- The New Thing In Heart Disease
... Nanobacteria -- The New Thing In Heart Disease. Source NanobacLabs, top. What
are Nanobacteria? ... Nanobacteria are far smaller than any known bacteria. ...
www.chelationtherapyonline.com/articles/p54.htm - Similar pages

Nanobacteria? Real Or Figments Of Fragments?
... Nanobacteria? Real Or Figments Of Fragments? Source. Monday, March 22, 1999
Published at 14:05 GMT Sci/Tech Do nanobacteria rule Earth and Mars? ...
www.chelationtherapyonline.com/articles/p80.htm - 46k - Cached - Similar pages

Part Of The Mysterious History and Origin Of Nanobacteria
... Part Of The Mysterious History and Origin Of Nanobacteria. Source Michael ... Park.
Today nanobacteria are either growing on them or not. ...
www.chelationtherapyonline.com/articles/p81.htm - 70k - Cached - Similar pages

Section of Articles On Chelation Therapy
... Nanobacteria -- The New Thing In Heart Disease. Nanobacteria? Real Or
Figments Of Fragments? Part Of The Mysterious History and Origin ...
www.chelationtherapyonline.com/ articles/indexsuppository.htm - 42k - Cached - Similar pages

Table Of Contents for the "Articles" Section of this web site
This is the DESCRIPTION home page for the organization that has the leading planetary technology for removal of metals from the body
www.chelationtherapyonline.com/articles/toc.htm - 61k - 1 Oct 2002 - Cached - Similar pages

EDTA Suppositories -- Another Validation Of Oral EDTA
... but all the descriptions of their use seem to make reference, also, to an antibiotic
called tetracycline, used, it is claimed, to kill "nanobacteria" that have ...
www.chelationtherapyonline.com/articles/p20.htm - 101k - Cached - Similar pages

Check out these.

I could comment on what you are doing, but not just yet.  I've given you a great deal to study.

See how it goes.

Cordially,

Karl Loren

----- Original Message -----

Dear Sally,

I am located in Burbank, CA.

I have one biography at:  http://www.happinessonline.org/KarlLoren/p1.htm  More in other places.

As you'll see there, I'm 71, have a wonderful wife, six children, and about 20 grandchildren.  You made a remark about your doctor being Harvard?  You must have read that I have a Harvard MBA.

So having read amongst the pages on the Happiness On Line site, one of their uses is for you to be able to spot the exact behavior, around you, that violates one or more of the moral precepts.

The idea is that once you agree with someone, as in a marriage, or as in what society expects, when either breaks that agreement there is turmoil.  The turmoil can and usually does affect the health.  It is easier to spot the breaking of an agreement by another, so that's where I start.

It is good enough, as a start, to realize that it is your mother who is a problem.  It will help more if you can spot exactly what she does that is in violation of some moral code -- hence the web site has that use.

Generally all of these broken agreements can often be distilled down to two.  I'll write it as personal about your mother.

1.  She invalidates you.  She tells you that you will never marry, or that you are dumb, or whatever she says.  It is an attack on YOU, as a being.  This does not include that she might say, "Your shoes are dirty."  That is not an invalidation of you, as a being.  These invalidative remarks are deadly, and unfortunately common.

2.  She evaluates for you.  She tells you what to think about yourself, or situations.

There are other characteristics of someone who is breaking a moral code, but the above two are often at the core of all others.

My sense is that either you are very quick, or you were reading for some while?  In any event, I am even more hopeful that I can figure out a way to help you by eMail.

I would next suggest that you may pursue the nanobacteria remedy, but I believe your much bigger problems, and more basic, or in two areas.

1.  You may have toxins locked up in your fatty tissues.  Street drugs?  Medical drugs?  These are oil soluble and never leave your body without the detox method I recommend.

2.  You probably have a rather poor diet?  Before I tell you what I advise, I ask you to describe your usual diet.

As you might guess, I don't sell anything connected with either of the above.

You are welcome to bring your doctor into this at any time -- as long as you feel she is NOT violating any of those moral codes.  Usually she would have been recommending psychiatric drugs, or referral.  If she did not? That is a large plus point for her.

I await your next message.

And, there is no need for only men to change the world.  You can and should and will.

Regards,

Karl Loren

October 2, 2002
Dear Sally,

Well, you certainly give me a lot to chew on.

I understand that you have "spotted" your mother -- sounds like a given.  You can yet help yourself by spotting some specifics of what behavior of hers has invalidated you and evaluated for you.

But, it sounds like you are ready to approach new vistas.

You mentioned early on that you found your husband was "pretty much emotionally unavailable."

Also, I now learn he is a diabetic.

The drugs you have taken?  Those are easily handled, when the time comes, although it will take a leap of hope and faith, with some money for the cost of the detox program I recommend.  It is offered in 100's of cities, by the way.

The diet you have been on, and are on?  These will probably be handled with more difficulty -- in part because one person never eats by herself, but in a social setting with another, or more.

I'll get to my own diet in due course, but it is fairly easy for me to pursue my diet when my wife is away.  She is currently away for several weeks.  We have a loving marriage, and she doesn't disagree with my diet.  But, she doesn't share it, so I feel some sort of compulsion to eat what she eats -- and go off my own diet.

She left just a day ago and my diet is rather pure just now.

So, there are these areas that need to be addressed:

1.  The bringing together you and your husband.  It is not to be expected that he would have my skills at what I am doing, but it would be best if he shared fully in what has transpired between you and me.  Is that possible?

2.  The diet change.  It isn't that it would cost you anything, and the foods would be basic and good. But, the social pressures and the "desire for food sensation" are strong obstacles that would need to be handled.

3.  At some point you will need to get the toxins out of your body --- perhaps your husband too?  This is one of the easiest parts of all this, but it takes some money to do.

4.  Finally, there are a variety of mental exercises I can have you do that will help you become happier, no matter what else happens.

Penta Water?  A fad, nothing more.

Nanobacteria?  Another fad, not basic for you.

I don't think there is any great improvement ahead for you in any type of pill, nutrient or medical treatment.

Let me put my attention, first, on the relationship between you and your husband.

What would it take for you to have him review all our correspondence and generally support what is going on, even to become a part of it.    No secrets???

Regards,

Karl Loren

October 3, 2002
Dear Sally,

The big problem with OA is the one I described, I hope vividly, in my article on fibromyalgia.

The other normal remedy, besides psychiatric drugs, for fibromyalgia is "victim support groups."  You are generally spending time, perhaps pleasantly, with losers, and there is no central direction -- no technology.  I've not read more than a few pages from the OA web site, but that is my first conclusion.

It is not inherently harmful, but at the very best it would be neutral.

Only if there were someone within YOUR group who succeeds in stopping his compulsive eating, and stopped because of some "thing" which is reasonably true for you, and that he then teaches that "thing," etc., would it be helpful.

My guess is that the majority of people who join OA leave the group, or quit attending meetings, without solving the problem they wanted to solve, and I also guess (unless it is contrary to the rules) that a fair number are on psychiatric drugs while attending OA meetings.  Thus the majority at any meeting will be losers.  It is very similar to a "wrong relationship."   You are associating with people who are harming themselves through overeating -- a violation of the basic moral code of "take care of yourself."

That happens to be one of the moral codes I've not written about yet.  It IS covered in that free book, however.  Part of that code, in the book, is simply:  "Eat properly."  There is a bit more to it, of course.

I'm curious why you have not requested the free book?

Simply put, you are associating with people who are violating that moral code, specifically, and hoping to find some way to stop violating that moral code from people who ARE violating that code.

I don't think your answer will be there.

You would be far better off at a gym, where physically fit people go.  You may not want to be seen?  It would be better to be seen at the gym, even if fat, than attend a meeting with losers.  At the gym you would/should spend some time doing whatever you CAN do.  Perhaps it is only to sit in the sauna?  Perhaps only to wade in the pool?  Perhaps you can do some of the exercises?  You would need a regime that didn't set you up for losses and where you can meet others.  Even another fat person MAY be a good friend at the gym, although there too you want to be sure they are making progress in their goals, not just attending.

Goals? Certainly one would be "regular attendance."  Another could be some success on your diet.  I could go on.

I'll see what you have to say on this part.

I understand that you "will share" your correspondence with me -- with your husband.  I accept for now that you don't feel ready to ask him to read all the raw stuff.  Once having written something to me, you can't undo it. It isn't that I'm going to tell him.  No!  It's that once you take the words out of your mind and put them somewhere in the physical universe, you are always subject to the wonder of whether or not he has seen them.  It is the withholding of the things said, not so much the things thought -- these are the withholds that harm you.

Mental exercises, making you happier?  Yes, that I can do, and might yet

Particularly since I have no "control" over you, and am doing this by eMail I can't know, for sure, what is going on with you, other than what you tell me.  It would be very tempting for you to "forget" to tell me of those things you think I might disapprove of.  I do not suggest that you do this, but I do know that is one of the problems with trying to help someone through this eMail medium.

I am getting closer to a plan with you.  We'll see.

Cordially,

Karl Loren

Dear Sally,

Well, I've read it all, carefully.

I got a late start at reading.  It is late and I'm going to bed -- I think about this more and write tomorrow.

Cordially,

Karl Loren

Dear Sally,

I've now had time to read your last message more carefully.

If I understand your current husband is Gene?

He is the father of two children who you helped raise but who are now out of the house?

During the several years you and he were raising those children their mother, Gene's ex-wife. caused trouble?

Two weeks after you are married to Gene the girl's mother accuses you of child abuse and he refuses to believe you that this is not true, and believes his daughter that YOU are abusing the girl?

The girl needs to admit the truth or you should never see her or speak to her again. She needs to put that truth, in detail, in writing, 

This dispute and charges against you, and Gene's belief in your guilt,  continued for some years and was finally partly resolved only when you threatened to leave Gene?

I would not necessarily expect Gene to have a good relationship with his ex-wife, but does he now agree that the ex-wife was guilty of various abuses of her own children, including sexual abuse?

Is he willing to put his beliefs in writing?  In detail?

And that his ex-wife blamed you for these abuses?

And that Gene, for some years, agreed with his ex-wife and did not believe you?

You were convinced that the boy was sexually abused by his mother, he then denied it, you went to your mother and she said he was a rotten boy, you believed it and he moved out?

Gene later agreed with you that he had been sexually molested by his mother?

Since leaving your home Lisa has had a very difficult life?

Including that she falsely accused her youth pastor of sexual attack?

Now, despite the fact that Gene agrees with the falseness of the charges against you, his ex-wife's mother is continuing these allegations?

Does Gene have any continuing relationship with the ex-wife's mother?

So, you have described Gene as a loving husband.  The above are NOT the actions of a loving husband.  If he sees the data, as I have summarized them above, as true, then he must realize that he has been an extremely wrong relationship for you, and you have been foolish for remaining with him.

While you are always responsible for your own condition, he certainly seems like the cause of your terrible health and condition right now. It is not just "him" but your continuing relationship with a person who has been very wrong for you, and apparently has not done what I would call a proper project to make amends for his wrong actions. 

That amends project?  When and if it gets to that I can advise you further.

I don't want to try to be a judge of "truth," and hear "his side of the story."  But, he should have a chance to read my exact words, and then discuss this with YOU.  With absolutely no force or threat he should agree or disagree, and with no fear of consequences, you should decide to either disconnect in some way, or to handle him on his wrong behavior.

As long as there is any significant disagreement on the truth of this time period, then you are better off being disconnected, as painful as that may seem.

If he agrees that the above statements, or some statement that you and he can agree on, without force on either one, then he should see the consequences of his terrible behavior.  (Or you could see false data in what you have written, and tell me.)

Then, you can explore alternatives, but it would seem that you need to move out of your town.  The fact that he is "tied to his job" is a problem for both of you, but as long as the story above is true, and unless you can get him agree to a handling that does the job, then it is time for him to move you to another town of your choice, and for him to wind up affairs at his job within one month, and come to the new home and find a job.

This should not be a prolonged action.  You should have plenty of money to live on in the new place.

If I am going to counsel someone like this I don't try to get proof of what you say as being truth.  I accept it as truth.

The test is whether he sees the same truth.  If he does, then he must do something that will help you and him live without any further contact with the bad ones in this scene.  I could advise you further on this.  But, as long as there is even a small part of any lie not admitted by the boy, or the girl, or the mother, or your mother, or the grandmother, then those people are not worthy of any continued relationship.

I don't care how friendly you might think you now are with either the boy or the husband, a refusal to accept the truth, a denial of that reality, is enough for you to disconnect.

I would leave to you to decide even whether to tell them where you have moved to.  Your husband?  Yes, but only with his promise to tell no one else.  They have not proven worthy of any continued relationship.

Your life is at stake.  Certainly your marriage is at stake.  Your life is more important than your marriage.

No matter how difficult it may seem to become separated, or divorced, if the above story is true, you need a very drastic change in your life -- probably one of location -- far away from the crazies!

I can't take the time to iron out small details, but I can advise more.  If you and Gene agree on what has happened, and if he accepts responsibility for what you say he did -- then either he supports you by making this drastic change in location, or you kick him out?  Or, you leave?

You don't have a mother to go to.  Who do you have, even very temporarily, that you can go live with for a short while.

If you have to do this extreme, moving out by yourself, then you should find a friend who would be the ONLY one who knows where you are, and that friend would be the ONLY one Gene would talk to.  You should not talk to him if this comes to this.

I can advise you of what you should expect to hear, from Gene, but only through your friend.  I should not be that person. I will never ask for any money for any advices I offer.

Again, he needs to see this.

I will offer more advice as this might move along.

He should pay, also, for a total toxic cleansing program for you  -- probably about $2000.  But you should not start that program until after you are re-situated.  He may need it too.  What drugs has he put into his body?

Obviously your diet has to change.  Continue with OA.  The  diet and weight problem will not change much with all this junk still sitting around in your space.

You can certainly show him all or any of my messages.

I'm writing this on Friday afternoon.  I regularly answer eMails seven days per week -- so let me know how this goes.

Cordially,

Karl Loren

-----Original Message-----
From: CucchiMo [mailto:cucchimo@tampabay.rr.com]
Sent: Friday, October 04, 2002 8:15 PM
To: Happiness
Subject: Re: Illness & Relationships

 

Thanks Karl! 

    I've gone over your msg and made clarifications behind each of your understandings.  I'll send this along as soon as Gene sees your remarks and mine and will possibly add his own.  At some point, I think it would be good if he and I phoned you together at your convenience, of course.  

Thanks again, Mo

October 4, 2002

----- Original Message -----

From: Happiness

To: 'CucchiMo'

Sent: Friday, October 04, 2002 5:48 PM

Subject: RE: Illness & Relationships

 

Dear Mo,

I'm sending this as a fresh message.  Also, you can show this alone to Gene if you wish, or, better, let him see first the entire story you sent to me and for which this is my response. 

I've now had time to read your last message more carefully.

If I understand your current husband is Gene?  Correct. 

He is the father of two children who you helped raise but who are now out of the house?  Correct. 

During the several years you and he were raising those children their mother, Gene's ex-wife, caused trouble?  Correct, although her molestation, neglect and abuse of these kids started long before I ever met Gene.   

Two weeks after you are married to Gene the girl's mother accuses you of child abuse or her and he refuses to believe you that this is not true, and believes his daughter that YOU are abusing the girl?  I think Gene knew I was not abusing his kids but he did not believe that the girl had made any false allegations against anyone.  I didn't believe the girl was doing anything, I thought it was entirely the mother.  The lawsuit was two months after we got married.  Six weeks is correct, (from 12/27/95 to 2/15/96).  Sorry, my mistake.   

The girl needs to admit the truth or you should never see her or speak to her again. She needs to put that truth, in detail, in writing,  even notarized.  Don't be reasonable.  As long as she won't admit the truth, notarized, don't speak to her.  I have nothing to do with her.  On a rare occasion, her father calls her or she calls here but I don't listen in on the call.  I don't send presents for her birthday or Christmas.  I let him handle any and all involvement with her.  I have asked her to put things in writing previously.  She's slippery and it's like arm wrestling a snake to get an adequate account.  We do have different accounts from Lisa  admitting her lies and actions in writing that I have saved in case her mother should ever try to use her in court.       

This dispute and charges against you, and Gene's belief in your guilt,  continued for some years and was finally partly resolved only when you threatened to leave Gene?  Not exactly.  The initial abuse charges were cleared up during the deposition to the first lawsuit in 1996.  It's pertinent because I feel that during our "honeymoon" period when we should have been bonding, we were fighting.  His ex might as well have been living with us.  We've had several lawsuits with his ex-wife since then.  The judicial system has not been just.  Our current lawyer told us that the female judge who was hearing our cases previously was removed from the bench because of her partiality for women.  This doesn't reverse or change any of her decisions in favor of the ex.  Finally, Gene took the ex to court on August 13th, so he could stop paying alimony to her based on the fact that she's an unfit mother.  His son testified against her.  We are still awaiting a decision from the judge.  This was the first time that Gene really went after her.  I am awaiting a decision before I order a copy of the transcript which will cost in excess of $1000.  As to me threatening to leave Gene, I owned the home we live in before I met Gene.  After years of listening to his threats to leave me, I finally told him that if he threatened to ever leave me again, that he had better be prepared to act on his threat because I would insist on it.  He has never threatened since then.  The court case and my asserting myself are mutually exclusive although it's all intertwined and connected.  Sorry for the confusion.          

I would not necessarily expect Gene to have a good relationship with his ex-wife, but does he now agree that the ex-wife was guilty of various abuses of her own children, including sexual abuse?  Yes, absolutely!  Yes, absolutely!   

Is he willing to put his beliefs in writing?  In detail?  Sworn?  Notarized?  Great idea!  I never even considered this.  I don't think this is necessary but if that's what you want, I'll do it.   

And that his ex-wife blamed you for these abuses?  Yes, not only her but his kids.  He apologized to me in front of his kids at Thanksgiving two years ago.  That's true.    

And that Gene, for some years, agreed with his ex-wife and did not believe you?  Gene is a man of so few words, I'm not sure this is correct.  It is definitely correct that he did not believe anything I said regarding his daughter.  She lied and he believed her despite anything I said or she did.  At no time did I agree with my ex-wife.  There was a time when I didn't believe Maureen.  My belief was that Maureen was giving Lisa way too much power and putting too much emphasis on Lisa's actions.  However, around the time Lisa was to graduate from high school, I realized that Maureen was right on target and was being completely truthful.       

You were convinced that the boy was sexually abused by his mother, he then denied it, you went to your mother and she said he was a rotten boy, you believed it and he moved out?  This is all correct and it was in exactly that order but it was a process that took time.  I didn't realize that Maureen's mom had any influence on Maureen's thinking regarding Anthony (Andy). 

Gene later agreed with you that the boy had been sexually molested by his mother?  Well, yes but I'm not sure that Gene said so in so many words.  This was a tough process for me to accept that my son had been molested and especially by his mother.  Yes, I had forgotten that.  Gene had a terrible time accepting this.  I read where this is very normal for the non-abusing parent.   

Since leaving your home Lisa has had a very difficult life?  Lisa has made her life very difficult at every turn while she was here and after she left.  I'd like to believe that she's turned her life around somewhat since living with Charlie and his wife.  I think Lisa is getting the discipline with Charlie and his wife that she has always lacked.  Like Maureen has always said, Lisa is her own worst enemy.  Although I don't think Lisa sees her life as difficult.  I think Lisa feels her life is okay, working at Walmart, paying some bills and feeling somewhat independent being away from us.   

Including that she falsely accused her youth pastor of sexual attack?  Not correct.  I did not mention this but while she lived here, she told me that she thought a young man who worked with the youth group with his wife, was trying to come on to her.  After her allegation to me, she went to his home several times and asked him to take her to the hair dresser, etc.  This is the same man whose home she broke into later on.  He called the youth pastor who called me.  She did not make any allegations against him that I'm aware of.  After she went to live with Charlie, told me by phone (after the fact) she told a woman in that community that Charlie was trying (or was having) sex with her.  This woman contacted Lisa's mother in Melbourne, FL and also contacted the authorities.  In the final analysis, Charlie passed interrogation by the FBI in his home and no abuse was found.  Charlie disciplined Lisa for lying.  No comment.   

Now, despite the fact that Gene agrees with the falseness of the charges against you, his ex-wife's mother is continuing these allegations?  Yes.  This woman is an extreme right wing born again Christian.  After 9/11, she wrote a note apologizing to us for all the harm she has done.  Gene called her, at my urging, to tell her that we appreciated her note but that we were going against her daughter.  (I listened in on the call but said nothing.)  My hope was that we could save Andy from having to testify against her by reaching a settlement.  The grandmother then threatened to spend every dime she has to fight us any way she could.  She then went to the police dept. and filed a charge against me for calling her home.  The police called me and told me that if I continued to call and harrass this woman, she would press charges against me.  I told them that I had not placed the call, that my husband had and that the call was in response to mail the woman had sent us.  They told me to tell him to stop calling this couple and harrassing them.  As for the other people that she has spoken to against  me, I'm not sure Gene even believes that she's done that.  I believe that the old woman made contact with old friends of mine and made negative comments about Maureen.  All of this was before the court case in August and we've had no further contact with her.  She also made a harrassing call to my son in an effort to prevent him from testifying against her daughter with no regard to him.  I read that part of the pedophile profile is a strong domineering and controlling mother figure in their lives.         

Does Gene have any continuing relationship with the ex-wife's mother?  No, she, her husband and the ex-wife all live on the east coast of Florida and we are three hours away on the west coast.  I have no contact with or desire to contact any of these ex in-laws.      

He needs to handle her lies or disconnect from her.  He has not discussed her lies with her.  He has already disconnected from them.  True. 

So, you have described Gene as a loving husband.  The above are NOT the actions of a loving husband.  If he sees the data, as I have summarized them above, as true, then he must realize that he has been an extremely wrong relationship for you, and you have been foolish for remaining with him.  That's true.  I have not been supportive in all this turmoil towards Maureen.  I'm trying to be supportive now. 

While you are always responsible for your own condition, he certainly seems like the cause of your terrible health and condition right now. It is not just "him" but your continuing relationship with a person who has been very wrong for you, and apparently has not done what I would call a proper project to make amends for his wrong actions.  I'm trying to make amends.  That's one of the reasons why I went after my ex in the lawsuit.  I'm trying to be more supportive.   

That amends project?  When and if it gets to that I can advise you further.

I don't want to try to be a judge of "truth," and hear "his side of the story."  But, he should have a chance to read my exact words, and then discuss this with YOU.  With absolutely no force or threat he should agree or disagree, and with no fear of consequences, you should decide to either disconnect in some way, or to handle him on his wrong behavior.  We have discussed this here this morning.  I know he  believes that he was responsible for not supporting me and for not disciplining his daughter.  He is an ultra easy going guy.  I am diligent and focused and at the opposite end of that spectrum.  We see things differently.  I am learning to respect other people's opinions and be okay with where they are.  I see him learning this also and opening himself up to some of my beliefs.  I'd like to speak with you at this point.  Gene is remiss and I see him trying to make this up to me.  He agrees he was wrong.  I take a certain amount of responsibility here as no one could abuse me without me allowing him to do so.  I guess I need clarification on your term, "disconnect in some way".  I agree with Maureen.    

As long as there is any significant disagreement, between you to, on the truth of this time period, then you are better off being disconnected, as painful as that may seem.  I'm not sure there's any disagreement.  Rather, despite our agreement and Gene's changed demeanor, I can't seem to get past what happened in the past.  I'm stuck.  I see that too.     

Mo, even if YOU are wrong, and don't want to admit it, YOU will be better off disconnecting from him, even if on this false premise.  I'm confused here and would appreciate your clarification when we speak. 

If he agrees that the above statements, or some statement that you and he can agree on, without force on either one, then he should see the consequences of his terrible behavior.  (Or you could see false data in what you have written, and tell me.)  I see that my actions have caused Maureen tremendous problems. 

Then, you can explore alternatives, but it would seem that you need to move out of your town.  The fact that he is "tied to his job" is a problem for both of you, but as long as the story above is true, and unless you can get him agree to a handling that does the job, then it is time for him to move you to another town of your choice, and for him to wind up affairs at his job within one month, and come to the new home and find a job.  I have a problem with this.  At my age, I'm concerned about finding another job with stability for the future. 

This should not be a prolonged action.  You should have plenty of money to live on in the new place.

Don't YOU be reasonable about this.

If I am going to counsel someone like this I don't try to get proof of what you say as being truth.  I accept it as truth.

The test is whether Gene sees the same truth.  If he does, then he must do something that will help you and him live without any further contact with the bad ones in this scene.  I could advise you further on this.  But, as long as there is even a small part of any lie not admitted by the boy, or the girl, or the mother, or your mother, or the grandmother, then those people are not worthy of any continued relationship.  It's a given.  As long as the alimony continues, the ex has to know where I reside.  Once this lawsuit is resolved in my favor, I'm free to move anywhere I choose without her or her family being aware of our whereabouts. 

Moving away is the easiest way to accomplish this -- perhaps with a letter telling them what they have to admit to, to get back in your good graces.  Under no circumstances do I want any involvement whatsoever with his ex or her family.  My mother doesn't see that she has ever been wrong about anything nor would she be willing to ever put anything in writing.  The son has acknowledged his wrong doings to me.  The daughter is very much like her mother.  I hold out little to no hope of her ever coming around to being an honest and straightforward person.  I keep her at a protective distance.  She doesn't come around or contact us.  Her father maintains limited contact with although I think he holds out hope that she will turn out okay.  I do still maintain hope for her and believe that's my job as her father.     

I don't care how friendly you might think you now are with either the boy or the husband, a refusal to accept the truth, a denial of that reality, is enough for you to disconnect.  I believe they have accepted the truth and do not deny the reality of what has transpired.  I'm the one who is stuck here.  We don't deny the truth or reality.  In the past, my son and I have discussed how badly we treated Maureen and how wrong we were.   

I would leave to you to decide even whether to tell them where you have moved to.  Your husband?  Yes, but only with his promise to tell no one else.  They have not proven worthy of any continued relationship.  Please let me know if this is still the case after having read the above.  At this point, I think you, Gene and I all need to talk.  We're available today anytime.  Please contact us when you finish reading this to set up a time convenient for you.  Thanks Karl.  I agree.     

Your life is at stake.  Certainly your marriage is at stake.  Your life is more important than your marriage.

No matter how difficult it may seem to become separated, or divorced, if the above story is true, you need a very drastic change in your life -- probably one of location -- far away from the crazies!

I can't take the time to iron out small details, but I can advise more.  If you and Gene agree on what has happened, and if he accepts responsibility for what you say he did -- then either he supports you by making this drastic change in location, or you kick him out?  Or, you leave?

You don't have a mother to go to.  Who do you have, even very temporarily, that you can go live with for a short while.

If you have to do this extreme, moving out by yourself, then you should find a friend who would be the ONLY one who knows where you are, and that friend would be the ONLY one Gene would talk to.  You should not talk to Gene, directly, if this comes to pass.

I can advise you of what you should expect to hear, from Gene, if you have to leave him, but only through your friend.  I should not be that person. I will never ask for any money for any advices I offer.

Again, he needs to see this.

I will offer more advice as this might move along.

He should pay, also, for a total toxic cleansing program for you  -- probably about $2000 or more.  You may have had so many drugs that you have to go to a central facility that would cost more.  An MD would evaluate this for you.

But you should not start that program until after you are re-situated.  He may need it too.  What drugs has he put into his body?

Obviously your diet has to change.  Continue with OA.  The  diet and weight problem will not change much with all this junk still sitting around in your space.

You should certainly show him all or any of my messages.

I'm writing this on Friday afternoon.  I regularly answer eMails seven days per week -- so let me know how this goes.

 

Cordially,

Karl Loren

Dear Mo,

You are surely doing a lot of work.  Very Well Done!

I've read your message, and the comments made to my message, carefully.

There are a few places where I'm not sure I understand, but my sense is that these areas are not vital to the situation.

You may certainly call me.

My toll free number you have -- you are welcome to use it.  If you prefer another, my home phone is 818 558-1696.  That rings in several places in our home, including my desk where I'll be working most of the rest of the day.

You may call any time.  I can certainly devote an hour, or more, as necessary to a conversation.

Your comments about needing to talk?

Here are some comments I'm pasting in from your message:

This woman contacted Lisa's mother in Melbourne, FL and also contacted the authorities.  In the final analysis, Charlie passed interrogation by the FBI in his home and no abuse was found.  Charlie disciplined Lisa for lying.  No comment.   

The woman has passed on false information and is not revealed.  Charlie may have been given a pass, but Charlie, as part of his discipline of Lisa should have gotten her written, sworn statement, notarized, that she lied to "that woman" and caused him the grief.  Whatever that discipline may have been I suspect that it was woefully inadequate.  However, it is not my job, nor much or yours (while still being part of Gene's job) to handle that lie.   I only mention this because Charlie's discipline was probably inadequate.

He needs to handle her lies or disconnect from her.  He has not discussed her lies with her.  He has already disconnected from them.  True. 

Lisa's grandmother made a threat and false complaint to the police, not recanted.  Since Gene knows the nature of that false complaint he could, at least write that, notarize it, and perhaps send a copy to her.  Not to expect her to recant, but to let her know the truth of the situation.

You wrote:

We have discussed this here this morning.  I know he  believes that he was responsible for not supporting me and for not disciplining his daughter.  He is an ultra easy going guy.  I am diligent and focused and at the opposite end of that spectrum.  We see things differently.  I am learning to respect other people's opinions and be okay with where they are.  I see him learning this also and opening himself up to some of my beliefs.  I'd like to speak with you at this point.  Gene is remiss and I see him trying to make this up to me.  He agrees he was wrong.  I take a certain amount of responsibility here as no one could abuse me without me allowing him to do so.  I guess I need clarification on your term, "disconnect in some way".  I agree with Maureen.    

You want to speak to me on this?  Fine.

I'm not sure there's any disagreement.  Rather, despite our agreement and Gene's changed demeanor, I can't seem to get past what happened in the past.  I'm stuck.  I see that too.   

I understand this.  Generally the type of outpouring you've done, and now discussion between you and \Gene -- all of this would normally have a greatly therapeutic effect in your life.  Just talking, and being heard! 

There is a very specific remedy for "being stuck in the past" on something.  I can fix that too, but definitely not through eMail.  Others can fix it too.  We can get to this -=- it may be that you will have had enough?  Or, that getting into that detox program will be enough?

Mo, even if YOU are wrong, and don't want to admit it, YOU will be better off disconnecting from him, even if on this false premise.  I'm confused here and would appreciate your clarification when we speak. 

I agree that would appear confusing.  I could explain more on the phone, but here too.

We should all seek to live with the truth.  But, truth should never be forced onto one.  So, you may believe a lie, and may be very certain of the truthfulness of something where another is equally convinced that you are believing a lie.

What I am saying here is that if you do not change your reality on things, of your own free will, do not bow to force in this, but accept and act on your reality.  You may make a "wrong decision" and even regret it, but it is far worse to say something is true when you don't believe it to be true.

Your own grasp of what is true is vitally important to you.

So, let's say that Gene is a good guy!  You think he is bad.  You are wrong?  Well, even if you are wrong, you should not live with a guy who you think is bad.  Realize that you ARE wrong, but you don't think so. 

What is true for you is true for you -- no other person can force you to accept any data.

Her father maintains limited contact with although I think he holds out hope that she will turn out okay.  I do still maintain hope for her and believe that's my job as her father.  

This is fine for him to do. 

Disconnection is ONLY an option when you have failed to handle the situation.  He, apparently, is NOT affected as you are and have been.  Disconnection is not necessary for him, but he does have to be sensitive to upsetting you.

You, on the other hand, need to work yourself up to a point where these other people don't affect you no matter what they say.  If that is not working, you try to handle them.  If that doesn't work, you disconnect.

I would leave to you to decide even whether to tell them where you have moved to.  Your husband?  Yes, but only with his promise to tell no one else.  They have not proven worthy of any continued relationship.  Please let me know if this is still the case after having read the above.  At this point, I think you, Gene and I all need to talk.  We're available today anytime.  Please contact us when you finish reading this to set up a time convenient for you.  Thanks Karl.  I agree.     

OK.  There may have been more I could have commented on, but this was the last point where you suggested a phone conversation.

I'm impressed, Mo, at your willingness and ability to have Gene read all this.

It appears that there is little, if any disagreement between you on this.

The most basic thing here is implied and stated above.

If someone is a "wrong relationship" for YOU, then you have these three choices:

1. Change so that it doesn't bother you.  Truly "wrong behavior" should not be tolerated however.

2.  Get the person to change the "wrong behavior."

3.  Get out of his space.

Moving is ONLY necessary if there is any wrong behavior still going on now.

The point that you are "remembering" wrong behavior could be caused by someone living in your current life who is reminding you of that past -- in this sense moving away from that "someone" would help.

A better solution, if the bad behavior is not current, but the reminder is?  That's what I referred to as a remedy that I could do, but not by eMail (or phone).

So, do give me a call  -- 818 558-1696.

Cordially,

Karl Loren